Curse

BahamutKaiser · Dec 30, 2006, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Strength applies more as a skill attribute rather than a boost to abilities, for some classes, their faster casting or energy return from deaths are some of the only features to their primary, with nearly no skills.

Beside that, Warrior features the highest armor, and adrenaline based skills, its unique advantages do not pivot on its primary use, the class has other pros which seperate the class from others.

A perfect comparison would be Assassin, who has increased critical, and energy return on critical as a primary attribute, and even has some good attack skills in this attribute as well, but when you compare other figures innate to the class the complete package isn't any better than warrior (worse IMO). It is a perfect example of how the Primary isn't the only advantage Warrior has.

Draxanoth · Dec 30, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

The argument about 16 STR giving bonus damage is pointless since you get more damage per point in weapon skill than STR. Last time I checked 15 weapon points even with the 20 sucking a large chunk outta the pool for 12/11/6 was better than doing 11 10 10. Sure you could go all weap and all STR, but to me, tactics seems to have more useful stuff as far as staying alive. Lion's comfort relies on both too. We should get an innate point of life regen or something since we get hosed on energy. Maybe conditions do 1 less degen? We're buff and studly, we should bleed less!

Not A Fifty Five · Dec 30, 2006, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Well I always have weapon skill at 16 so the whole strength vs weapon skill is moot. 16 weapon and 3 strength is much better than say 15 weapon and 6 strength. However, 16 and 13 is worth considering if you can sacrifice heal sig

MegaMouse · Dec 30, 2006, 12:54 AM // 00:54

I agree that Strength needs to be upped to say 2% armor penetration. Seeing as I run a 16 point strength warior and Sentinals armor (100 armor points if your Strength is 13+), plus one of the best shields in the game (Eternal Shield with 16 armor points itself +30 hp and 5 points points of damage absorbtion), not much gets through while I can dish it out. The only problem with a Sentinal build s the weekess to conditons and elemental damage.

Mega mouse

Nexus Icon · Dec 30, 2006, 12:57 AM // 00:57

See, people keep comparing Strength saying that you can't link it to the skills it allows access to, but I think that the skills are precisely what makes Strength a great attribute line.

Let's look at the figures:
Strength: 34 skills total, 11 elites
Expertise: 18 skills total, 9 elites
Divine Favour: 23 skills total, 9 elites
Soul Reaping: 5 skills total, 3 elites
Fast Casting: 8 skills total, 4 elites
Energy Storage: 8 skills total, 6 elites
Critical Strikes: 17 skills total, 7 elites
Spawning Power: 20 skills total, 7 elites
Mysticism: 21 skills total, 8 elites
Leadership: 20 skills total, 5 elites

Ranking them in order of flexibility and exclusive access to a skill's potential, Strength is by far and away the winner. It's nearest competitor, Divine Favour, has access to 11 skills less than Strength and 2 less elites.

Strength really cannot be looked at purely for the inherent effects associated with it, you HAVE to take into account the skill diversity it gives you access too.
No other primary attribute skill line comes even close to matching Strength's variety.

Don't balance the attribute without considering what it gives you access to.

Also, with the release of Nightfall, it should have been obvious to most warriors out there that the Strength line had received some much-needed buffs. A lot of skills were introduced that took the place of ones more traditionally associated with Tactics, or at the very least, had warriors considering dropping Tactics a bit to put more back in to Strength.
Skills such as Enraging Charge, Flail, Lion's Comfort...

So, /notsigned.
Leave Strength the way it is.

Redfeather1975 · Dec 30, 2006, 01:02 AM // 01:02

You don't put points into strength for a good increase in dps.
You put points into strength for either the +13str armour.
Or to have extra melee attacks, such as 1/4 second for quick combos.
Or for the plethora of supplementary skills in the line.
The armour penetration buff is a little bonus.

There is no mesmer armour that increases with higher fast casting.
There aren't nearly as many mesmer skills in fast casting as in strength.
Yet I see people ranking fast casting better than strength.
Some people seem to be nit picking way too much.

The big picture is more important here.

Deleet · Dec 30, 2006, 01:53 AM // 01:53

I'm pretty sure strengh @ 16 doesn't give you +32% damage...

Maybe 5%, when using skills.

Crom The Pale · Dec 30, 2006, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Though most might think this is way over the top id like to see stregth changes to more closely resemble Lightbringer.

ie: +1dmg on attack skills for each rank in strength, -1dmg vs physical attacks for each rank in strength.

Currently the majority of strength skills that people use are defencive like dolyak, defypain or sprint/rush. This would bring new life to skills like Power Attack that are currently not as effective as an attack skill in any weapon with attributes 16.

When Guild Wars first came out they said that Warriors were not the traditional tanks but were strong damage dealers, this would bring that back into being!

Deleet · Dec 30, 2006, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Though most might think this is way over the top id like to see stregth changes to more closely resemble Lightbringer.

ie: +1dmg on attack skills for each rank in strength, -1dmg vs physical attacks for each rank in strength.

Currently the majority of strength skills that people use are defencive like dolyak, defypain or sprint/rush. This would bring new life to skills like Power Attack that are currently not as effective as an attack skill in any weapon with attributes 16.

When Guild Wars first came out they said that Warriors were not the traditional tanks but were strong damage dealers, this would bring that back into being!

They are already the most damage dealing class and do not need a buff.

Winterclaw · Dec 30, 2006, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hand of Ruin

Skills are just a quick-fix, the attribute it's self should be addressed. IMO, it should be something like "1.5% armor penetration when fighting in melee".

That would make it worth putting points into.

Check out what Nexus said and use that as my rebuttal.

Skills may be a quick fix and not everyone has all the chapters, but it still is pretty good. And as BK said, strength is only one part of the warriors package. I only use strength normally as a place to put in left-over points so if you think about it that way, warriors are one of the few classes that can get by without a lot their primary skills. Try doing that as a heal/prot monk or an elementalist.

Crom The Pale · Dec 30, 2006, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

They are already the most damage dealing class and do not need a buff.

I beg to differ but Elementalist, mesemers,necros and even smite monks can deal out more damage than most wars can.

Wars dish out long term stable dps, not high fast damage with the exception of maybe 2-3 skills. They can not spike as effectivly as most other classes and with new monsters having extreme power and only being killable with spikes this would help that out.

Keep in mind that melee attacks are still the easiest to defend against, this leaves wars at a huge disadvantage.
With all the new skills that let you blind, criple, hex and use stances to avoid attacks or enchants/skills to increase your armor a Warrior does little damage when compared to most other classes.

lightblade · Dec 30, 2006, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Strength maybe weak, but that doesn't make warriors weak. So STOP COMPLAINING.

BahamutKaiser · Dec 31, 2006, 12:21 AM // 00:21

When you factor in the availablity of a shield with points in Stregth, and the option to wear armor with and additional 20 armor vs elemental damage with 13 points in strength, for a total bonus of 20 armor vs elemental damage and 16 defense shield with added features, it tallies out to alot of addition.

Strength offers 2% armor penetration on attack skills per point, added defense and effects with a shield, and added elemental defense over his already high defense with sentinal armor, as well as the best skill selection available to a primary attribute, with attack, defense, survival, retaliation, and movement skills all in one attribute.

This discussion is over.

The Muffen Man · Dec 31, 2006, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

When you factor in the availablity of a shield with points in Stregth, and the option to wear armor with and additional 20 armor vs elemental damage with 13 points in strength, for a total bonus of 20 armor vs elemental damage and 16 defense shield with added features, it tallies out to alot of addition.

Strength offers 2% armor penetration on attack skills per point, added defense and effects with a shield, and added elemental defense over his already high defense with sentinal armor, as well as the best skill selection available to a primary attribute, with attack, defense, survival, retaliation, and movement skills all in one attribute.

This discussion is over.

No the discussion is not over!
Warriors are kack and strength is jank I know Ive played warrior from the start and slowly but surely anet has been nerfing them into submition .
Warriors in pvp have effectively 80al because no one but the village idiot uses physical attacks against them.
Ive recently gone back to my sin and man now there is a melee killing machine,
before a warrior can say wtf Ive poisoned kded deep wounded an applied bleeding and used 4 attack skills with + damage on him and im off to my next target.
Also Strength: 34 skills total, 11 elites I can count on one hand how many useful skills there are and no one uses any of the strength elite.

Redfeather1975 · Dec 31, 2006, 01:19 AM // 01:19

I think strength has a lot of potential. I also think that there are a lot of warrior players out there who refuse to get all the skills and actually experiment with them to create their own builds. They may just put points into strength, open up the skill trainer window, read the skills' descriptions and that's about all they'll do.

Darkpower Alchemist · Dec 31, 2006, 02:13 AM // 02:13

I run a strength of 10 on my warrior,so;

[skill=big]Defy Pain[/skill]

What makes the above skill better than;

[skill=big]Endure Pain[/skill]

+20 Armor? The elite isn't any better than its counterpart, but are they stackable? That would make the line scary.

[skill=big]Dolyak Signet[/skill]

And the farmer's best friend. These 3 skills make for a major tanking combo, but what of the attack skills?

[skill=big]Protector's Strike[/skill]

Who doesn't run from the warrior?

[skill=big]Bull's Charge[/skill]

Not my cup of tea,honestly, since I can't use a skill while running. But, what skill would you use?

[skill=big]Bull's Strike[/skill]

Are skills only counted if the description is marked as a skill, or does this count as a skill? Someone define "skill" for me, please.

Anyway, from what I have displayed, Strength's saving grace is its skills, which has been previously mentioned, but is that really enough? depends on your perspective,I imagine.

Redfeather1975 · Dec 31, 2006, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Endure Pain and Defy Pain are different. One is for offensive support, the other for defensive emergency. It's why one has no recharge and costs adrenaline and the other costs energy, but has a recharge. I think though that I misinterpreted what you were really asking about the two.

As for the strength melee attacks, I like them too in that they supplement any melee weapon beyond it's native attack skill set.
If you look at fast casting, which in another topic was being ranked higher than strength, you'd see in the average mesmer build that only left over points are thrown in FC. Mesmers really don't gain a big advantage from FC unless they are relying on FC skills. Speeding up mesmers already fast casts is not a practical use of the attribute points. I can't help but strength gives higher potential returns than fast casting, so I see that saying it is the weakest primary attribute is just not true.

Gregslot · Dec 31, 2006, 02:49 AM // 02:49

What? Again this discussion?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

I took it from here:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Armor_penetration

At 16 strength:
Against AL 60, the damage increase is around 20%.
Against AL 80 around 25%.
Against AL 100 around 32%.

That is, going by the estimate that damage is doubled for every 40 AL reduction.

The definition of what an attack is is a bit vague though: "damage-dealing attack"

EVERYONE READ THIS! ¬¬

You already get 100 armor and a shield as a warrior, and you STILL want to do more physical damage then a assassin?!?! Are you insane?!
Stop playing with swords because they deal avarage damage and play with hammers that deal badass damage and you will see big numbers popping on your screen.

Crom The Pale · Dec 31, 2006, 02:55 AM // 02:55

This isnt a disscution of the Strength skills list, its about the primary attibutes inate bonus.

Yes there are a lot of great strength based skills, but then the same can be said for Divine Favor, but its inate bonus is HUGE compared to Strength.

Physical attacks by wars not using skills = 0 most of the time in the higher end areas.

Allowing strength to work on all attacks rather than just skills would be a good start to improving this.

All of the other primary attributes have a much more noticable effect and benifit than Strength, its just unbalanced.

Would you think the same was true of other primarys if they were equal to Strength..

Divine favour - 1 extra hp of healing per attribute point
Expertise - -1energy cost per 4 points
Fast casting - 1/4sec cast time for 4 points
Energy storage - 1 point of energy for each point
Soul reaping - 1 energy for each 4 points

The simple fact is that Strength is not balanced when compared to the other primary attributes, and it shoud be.

Redfeather1975 · Dec 31, 2006, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

This isnt a disscution of the Strength skills list, its about the primary attibutes inate bonus.

Yes there are a lot of great strength based skills, but then the same can be said for Divine Favor, but its inate bonus is HUGE compared to Strength.

Physical attacks by wars not using skills = 0 most of the time in the higher end areas.

Allowing strength to work on all attacks rather than just skills would be a good start to improving this.

All of the other primary attributes have a much more noticable effect and benifit than Strength, its just unbalanced.

Would you think the same was true of other primarys if they were equal to Strength..

Divine favour - 1 extra hp of healing per attribute point
Expertise - -1energy cost per 4 points
Fast casting - 1/4sec cast time for 4 points
Energy storage - 1 point of energy for each point
Soul reaping - 1 energy for each 4 points

The simple fact is that Strength is not balanced when compared to the other primary attributes, and it shoud be.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but it's all about the big picture. Strength innate bonus and offensive skills are perfect supplements to axe, sword, hammer, scythe and dagger builds. The defensive skills are open to any type of build.
Divine Favor is not that broad it's specialized. It's innate bonus is only for monk skills cast on a target, it's innate bonus and skill set benefit practically no secondary skills. There also is no +AL for having high divine favor.
Questioning balance requires taking everything and anything that the attribute affects into consideration.
If all the warriors out there say they would rather have strength specialized then maybe Anet will move some of the strength skills to tactics, hammer, ect... change them from melee attack to specialized attack so that they can only be used when wielding the appropriate weapon and also take away the +AL armour option?